Australian Surf Rowers League

H5 - I'm a busy guy but if your free tomorrow night I'd like to buy you 5 schooners of black...you've been battling the unarmed all day and you must be thirsty!

Couple of things

- I'd like to be the first to volunteer as a paid official... 7 years rowing and 6 sweeping... 13 years all up...Gives me a junior ranking at best.... Let's say $1000 a day?

- my first act would be to split the carnivals in half.(except for State and Aussies)... And go back to u21's for men ( 23 men should be open or reserves...they are men for farks sake - been able to drink, vote and f*ck for 5 years!)
So open men, women and u21s one day.... Reggie's and u23 women another day....

- my second change is every 45 mins I'd hold a sweeps/rowers/sponsors/anyone with 2 cents meeting....to determine whether the course is "fair"... Decision to adjust course would be via majority vote...those in minority or who don't turn up can get stuffed... No recourse
Because we've dropped 3 divisions there's plenty of time for 'competitor input'

- third - races would be two laps of the course.... Racing is far too tight at present due to boat technology, flat courses, no waves etc... In the old days the best crews were those who could row and bail the fastest! ... No need for finish line technology as crews are spread all over the course

More changes to come just finishing my Coopers 'Red'

Sorry hornet 5 but it does appear you are running to your own rules!

I believe we were running the Australian championships in accordance with the 34th edition of the SLSA competition manual?
The section regarding "draws" under "general conditions" states seeding for All carnivals SLSA conduct and your 2008 minutes state major events only (1st difference) the 34th edition indicated "seeding" from the initial draw yet the rules you are running are from a half arsed and illogical ASRL 2008 recommendation of seeding subsequent rounds (2nd difference). Seeding out of only 1 round (or even 3 rounds) of a random team draw with a random lane draw and further considering the random impact of surf, just isn't logical (or fair). So I do not believe the SLSA 34th edition of the comp manual supports this no matter how you choose to interpret it.

So it hasn't been adopted by the SLSA... The two documents are different.

So the way you run things may be fine for the ASRL but it is not in accordance with the 34th edition of the SLSA comp manual.

Matt. What do you mean by "34th"? Arn't we going by the 35th?

It's often said you are ahead of your time Scott.

But 34th it is

Matt,
Yes the Aussies are run in accordance with the 34th manual.
Yes seeding is for all carnivals SLSA conducts.
2008 minutes are not mine, they are the ASRL's.
The ASRL committee nominated major carnivals at the meeting. Maybe they thought it was best left to the referee at minor carnivals as per the manual. I don't believe the ASRL has influence over all facets of surf sports.
Are you aware of the procedure for seeding the first round at Aussies? I am, I made it my business to find out 2 years ago.
So once the initial draw(seeding) is done as per the manual, what happens next? Does seeding then finish?
What is this random team draw you refer to? The draw is seeded and then the alleys in the heat are randomized as per the recommendation of the ASRL and adopted by SLSA and used since 2009.
The 34th manual allows the referee as per 2.13 (d) to do what has happened for the past few years. Read seeding subsequent rounds
I don't run things at Aussie or ASRL level
It is all in accordance with the manual and I'm glad to see you have access to it

Maybe this is a bit off topic but it's a possible solution to the decline of our sport. I say it's declining because crew numbers are dropping off-in A's, the premier divsion. Be interested to see what people think:

From what I can see there are two main problems with surfboats.
1) the issues with fair racing already discussed on this topic (clearly a decision making issue)
2) Not enough quality sweeps in the sport. There are more interested rowers than competent sweeps available to take them-resulting in lower competitor numbers than is otherwise possible-for example 45 Open mens crews at Aussies this year.

The decision making process obviously needs to be improved. I wasn't up there this year but can' figure out why Reserves got moved to a lake but 14 year old egg and spooners were allowed to compete. Have heard from many sources that the alleys were unfair as well. Having said that I'm not going to address that as others already have to an extent.

My first year at Aussies was the last one at Kurrawa before they went to Scarboro, about 2005 I think. There were 196 reserve crews and about 120 A crews that year. I assume the conditions were just as bad at Kurruwa then as now so the racing conditions can't be the reason the sport is dying.

I think the sport is dying because there is a shortage of good young sweeps coming through the ranks. There are definitly young sweeps coming up like Mitch from Billy etc but most of the sweeps on the beach are pretty old. Especially the ones with the experience and skill to win at Kurruwa. Yes I know Bryce Munro is not old, I'm speaking in general terms. This means that at almost all clubs, it's only realistic to have one (at best) crew in each division, and especailly only one A crew who need the best sweeps to have a chance.

People say U23's is the growth division. If there is an U23 crew at a club and an A crew, it doesn't matter if the U23's are doing well. If there's only one sweep at the club, 4 rowers from either crew won't be rowing A's when the U23's reach open age. This is a real problem.

Many clubs could attract a lot more good rowers (think of all the ex-still water kids coming through from the private schools) if they could get a sweep who could teach them the ins and outs of surf rowing-and hold a wave-and also take them in compeition. Imagine if every club had 2 A crews or 2 open womens crews-and they were of good quality?

The solution therefore is to incentivise more people to become sweeps. Ex-rowers being the preferred option. More quality sweeps = more quality crews. Everyone knows rowers go to (good) sweeps, not the other way round-and there's plenty more rowers than sweeps sifting about.

So, how to incentivise people to sweep? I'm sure there's a million ways to do it but here's a few ideas:
-Create a fund to pay sweeps per crew they sweep in carnivals. For example-$50 a crew per carnival. That would help cover their time away from family etc as they are usually older and have those considerations.
-Set up a Sweeping college that runs year round, say once a fortnight. So people could come in whenever it fit their calender, allowing everyone to learn in the off season and whenever they wanted to-the more motivated people would learn faster. It would need to be staffed with volunteer rowers and experienced sweeps. I have no solution for this but there needs to be a formal repository of sweeping knowledge that is disseminated in a proactive, practical and organised way. It needs to be chasing A DVD is a nice start but isn't really what I mean. Footy players don't become premiership players from watching TV.

These ideas are just food for thought, I haven't figured out a good way to do it yet but that's where discussion comes in.

Yes, this costs money and would require a three-five year plan (since that's about how long it takes to become a class sweep from scratch, give or take). If the ASRL did this in conjunction with holding it's own carnival just after Aussies-a well run national championship, I think the sport would thrive.

Sweeps are the most important thing in our sport. Private schools churn out capable (still water) rowers year after year. Sweeps are much harder to produce. More, and higher quality sweeps will lead to more surf rowers, more interest in the sport, more crews, more sponsorship.

I'm prepared to say that many sweeps aren't capable of taming the conditions at Kurrawa. Rowers know this, and it keeps them away because you can't win going sideways Let's change that.

Anyway this is a totally different solution to anything that's been put forward so far, what does everyone think?

Great... Now where can I find the documentation, criteria and formulas used to rank and seed crews from around Australia into the first round of Aussies????

Re the change of venue - which I think will be inevitable - why not Burleigh.

Isnt as exposed as Kurrawa- doesnt get a chance to build up such a massive drag north (although still makes you think/be aware of where you need to be going in and out through the break) and can handle a wave. Its also a natural amphitheatre. Change of beach whilst still having access to all the logistics that make the Gold Coast so attractive to organisers and sponsors - accomodation, transport, food etc etc

Could handle the whole Championships - not just boats. Much as I enjoy personally competing at Kurrawa pretty sure it will be moved from there purely due to "risk". Unfortunately and even though they were isolated, terrible accidents - 2 fatalities in 3 years (not forgetting Robert back in 96) would surely have the powers that be asked to come up with an alternative venue

Moving the Aussies to Nth Kirra woud be a big, big mistake and accelerate the decline of our sport massively

I don;t know where to find them Matt. I looked but to no avail. So I asked the referee and he said it is taken solely on results from state champs. Some states get more than others such as finalists while others only get top 3. Don't shoot me, I'm only answering your question. This comes from the Aussie champs carnival competition committee who gives it to the area referee who gives it to the recorders to seed the crews. All as per the manual

And here in lies the problem.

The Competition Carnival Committee or the Referee are making decisions that have no basis for fairness. There is no national data base of results, there is no registration of crew members or crew names and there is no formalised weighting system between the states to determine if say a semi finalist at NSW states is better that a finalist in Victoria for example.

So this is a perfect example of whoever the powers are (Officials, Committees, panels or referees...whoever) are making decisions depending on their thoughts and beliefs and not necessarily well thought out, logical and published processes.

This is why we have this debate after every major carnival.

BMIAB wrote:


Interesting post Tim.

It seems to me that we have enough sweeps to run Reserves, so it really is up to the Clubs to upgrade the skills of the existing team.
Older sweeps often mentor up and comers - I don't have to look far from home to see the obvious benefits of that system.

South Curly is another great example of a club where the sweeps work together, and the results keep coming in. It's all about team work.

I have long held a theory that there should be one Open Men's crew at least for every two reserve crews in a Club. That would push more quality rowers back to where they belong.

The best sweeps get results from inexperienced rowers, but average sweeps can look good and improve quickly with well credentialled rowers under their control.

Unfortunately, our least experienced sweeps often end up with the least experienced rowers, so the learning process for both takes longer. That is where sweeps swapping crews at training pays off.

The best sweeps thrive on competition, insecurity breeds selfishness. The guys who put their hands up to run the Training Schools are well aware of this. That is why people look up to them.

The Referee acts on the information given to him by the CCC.Now there's a challenge for you Matt, do all of the above. Set out a well thought out, logical process and have it published. Sounds pretty easy to do. BTW how did you go getting the round robin system changed after last years Aussies? You know, the one you weren't happy with. Am I seeing a pattern here? Come up with something you would be happy with and take it to the BOSS or the ASRL. The system does work if you give it a go.

You are a patient man H5,

Been dealing with you too long Rick. Iv'e learnt to be patient and always happy to help out a fellow boatie

Talking of change for Aussies..........what about the repercharge v round robin issue....surely now we have gone back to repercharge - or in juniors and fillies no repercharge which was a disgrace (but thats a seprate issue) and a sure fire way of again turning people we are trying to get into the sport away from the sport............ the merit of round robin should be clear once and for all??

I saw on numerous occasions .....and unfortunately was involved in one start with my womens crew in Round 2....where in the early rounds crews were completely and utterly put out of the race....and therefore the championship....by the starter. I know "that's surfboats", however and before my very good friend H5 jumps in and tells me that the firing of the gun merely means that is when a sweep can elect to go.........its a bit rich when its an Australian titles and you get put under after only 3 strokes knowing its a knock out scenario in only the second round......it happens in the later stages as we all know but the idea of round robin was that if you suffered such a fate in the first few rounds and where a good enough crew then you could get by on the results of your other 2 races if your good enough.

Surely at an Australian titles.........where crews spend some much money and time to just get to the aussies.....let alone the actual cost of the Aussies themselves.........that round robin racing for the first 3 rounds is the way to go as it has been for the last 6 or 7 years....even if the cut off after the round robin is harsh..at least crews are getting 3 rows in to prove themselves. Please dont anyone compare this to board and ski area's or the Taplin area's........we are talking surf boats..........not other events.

Now again before I get bashed over the head about the lack of time available due to the other tragic circumstance that occurred at the carnival.......the repercharge scenario was put in place way before the commencement of the carnival and way before things turned sideways. I think in the case of the Fillies and Juniors to deny them even a repercharge row was a disgrace.....these are the kids we are trying to get into the sport an dthey were treated with virtual disdain.......one race and if your out by way od an ordinary start...then your out for the carnival............if that is not taking the sport backwards then I dont know how you could possibly say its taking the sport forwards.

Surely we wont go backwards and take away the opportunity for all crews to at least get 3 rows at the National titles.